Heating control via relay + FTM 20 TF sensor

Support und Bugs Homeegramme, Pläne, Szenarien
1

Hello Community:bat:

I like to ask you about help with some homeegram settings.

I have got a following installation:
2x FTM 20 TF sensor
2x Qubino flush 1D relay
1x Brain cube
1x EnOcean cube
1x Z-Wave cube

Relay 1 controls radiator heating circuit (switches input in gas boiler)
Relay 2 controls underfloor heating circuit (switches input in gas boiler)

Sensor 1 (FTM 20 TF) measures temperature on the floor with radiators.
Sensor 2 (FTM 20 TF) measures temperature on the floor with underfloor heating.

I set a homeegram for the HOME frame - relay switch ON

IF Radiator circuit temperature falls under 22°C
ONLY IF time frame is MO, TU, WE, THU between 6:30 to 21:00
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN Radiator relay SWITCH ON

I set a homeegram for the HOME frame - relay switch OFF

IF Radiator circuit temperature rises over 23°C
ONLY IF time frame is MO, TU, WE, THU between 6:30 to 21:00
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN Radiator relay SWITCH OFF

I set a homeegram for the VACATIONS frame - relay switch ON
IF Radiator circuit temperature falls under 16°C
ONLY IF mode is VACATIONS
THEN Radiator relay SWITCH ON

I set a homeegram for the VACATIONS frame - relay switch OFF
IF Radiator circuit temperature rises over 18°C
ONLY IF mode is VACATIONS
THEN Radiator relay SWITCH OFF

PROBLEM:

With settings above it works properly only when the mode is AT HOME and during set time frames.

After mode is changed from AT HOME to VACCATIONS it does not accept the mode change and it still works in AT HOME mode.

Example from yesterday evening: At 20:14 felt the temperature under 22°C ant the relay switched ON – that was correct. However at 21:00 set temperature (23°C) still was not reached, the relay was still switched ON. I expected that the relay will switch OFF because the condition ONLY IF time frame is MO, TU, WE, THU between 6:30 to 21:00 was not fulfilled.

I do not think that the homeegrams are set correctly according to the requirements we have.

QUESTIONS:

  1. Day temperature 23°C is set from 6:30 to 21:00?
    How to set the homeegram for setback (night) temperature from 21:00 to 6:30?

  2. Is it possible to set a manual homeegram/s which allow/s after one click to switch ON the radiator circuit and switch it OFF when the day temperature is reached?

  3. Does the system reacts immediately after switching mode from AT HOME to VACCATIONS?

Could you please help me with the right homeegrams settings and explanation?

Thank you very much :sun_with_face:

Pat

2

The trigger in your HG is the temperatur rising over 23°C. If this trigger is true the coonditions are tested. Your first condition „time between 6:30 to 21:00“ is not true when time is after 21:00. So the radiator relay will not switch off. Worse it will not switch off in the next timeframe because it may have exceeded the 23°C already. You have to add HGs to deal with the time outside your timeframe e.g. switch the relay off after 21:00 or add another timeframe pair for the nighttime.

You have to add two HGs per triggerpoint one for timeframe 21:01 to 23:59 and one for 00:00 to 06:29 to deal with this. Dont forget the days outside your timeframes.

You may allways switch the relay on and the HG will react, when the triggertemperature is reached and all conditions are met.
If you want to do this out off your timeframes you have to use two HGs. One to switch the relay on and start another one that looks für the daytemperature to be reached to switch it off again and deactivates itself. But you have to add a new condition in your other HGs that will be false if this Waiting-for-Daytemperture-HG is running. Otherwise you may get in confilict with your other triggerpoints.

No because by now the status is not a trigger in your HGs only a condition. It may work but …
Switching from HOME to VACCATION when you are in the (day)timeframe and the temperature is over 18°C but below 23°C will result in a never switching off relay because the trigger „rising above 18°C“ will never be true.

I hope you got some hints to try it yourself. It depends on the usecases you need.
You may wait about a month because CodeAttellier is working on a built in module for heating control .

3

Hello ch.krause!
Thank you very much for very useful advices:+1:

I did set all the timeframes for all day. There is timeframe for daytime temperature and also nighttime temperature. It seems that it works correctly now.

I am still thinking how to solve out switching between modes (status) HOME and VACATION to change heating timeframes and temperatures.
You said that the status is only a condition in my HG. Will it works if the status will be a condition?

Example:
IF status is VACATION
ONLY IF temperature falls under 16°C
ONLY IF timeframe mo-sun from 00:00 to 23:55
THEN switch relay ON

IF status is VACATION
ONLY IF temperature rises over 18°C
ONLY IF timeframe mo-sun from 00:00 to 23:55
THEN switch relay OFF

Is that right?

Or is there any other possibility how to do that while maintaining these HG?

IF Radiator circuit temperature falls under 22°C
ONLY IF time frame is MO - SUN between 6:30 to 21:00
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN Radiator relay SWITCH ON

IF Radiator circuit temperature rises over 23°C
ONLY IF time frame is MO - SUN between 6:30 to 21:00
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN Radiator relay SWITCH OFF

  • Night mode frame

IF Radiator circuit temperature falls under 16°C
ONLY IF mode is VACATIONS
THEN Radiator relay SWITCH ON

IF Radiator circuit temperature rises over 18°C
ONLY IF mode is VACATIONS
THEN Radiator relay SWITCH OFF

  • Night mode frame

I am looking forward for heating control module, but I have to solve out changing status before it comes.

Thank you.

4

I would try another approach:

Use two HGs for the change of the modus/status

IF status changes to VACATION
THEN activate HG Radiator_Daytime_Vaccation
AND activate HG Radiator_Nighttime_Vaccation
AND activate HG Underfloor_Daytime_Vaccation
AND activate HG Underfloor_Nighttime_Vaccation
AND deactivate HG Radiator_Daytime_Home
AND deactivate HG Radiator_Nighttime_Home
AND deactivate HG Underfloor_Daytime_Home
AND deactivate HG Underfloor_Nighttime_Home
AND Radiator relay SWITCH OFF
AND Underfloor relay SWITCH OFF

and another one with changed status:

IF status changes to HOME
THEN deactivate HG Radiator_Daytime_Vaccation
AND deactivate HG Radiator_Nighttime_Vaccation
AND deactivate HG Underfloor_Daytime_Vaccation
AND deactivate HG Underfloor_Nighttime_Vaccation
AND activate HG Radiator_Daytime_Home
AND activate HG Radiator_Nighttime_Home
AND activate HG Underfloor_Daytime_Home
AND activate HG Underfloor_Nighttime_Home
AND Radiator relay SWITCH OFF
AND Underfloor relay SWITCH OFF

As you can see there will be only the four (or may be more) HGs active the match the status you set. The others will be deactivated.
You have to deal with some special cases I mentioned before. If you switch to VACCATION from HOME during the daytime, the temperature is allready over 18°C and if the Radiator is switched on because it was heating up from 22°C to 23°C, it will never switch off. The last two lines switch off the relays just in case.

5

Great! I will test it with your suggested solution.:+1:
Thank you very much for help.

6

Hello c.krause!
I have tested all the timeframes with daytime temperature and nighttime temperature.
The system did not switch relays ON or OFF according to the set timeframes and temperatures.

RADIATOR HG’s:

NIGHTMODE 1 ON:
IF temperature falls under 20°C
ONLY IF MO-SUN 00:05 - 6:25
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN switch relay ON

NIGHTMODE 1 OFF:
IF temperature rises over 21°C
ONLY IF MO-SUN 00:05 - 6:25
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN switch relay OFF

MORNING ON:
IF temperature falls under 22°C
ONLY IF MO-SUN 6:30 to 9:00
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN switch relay ON

MORNING OFF:
IF temperature falls under 23°C
ONLY IF MO-SUN 6:30 to 9:00
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN switch relay OFF

NIGHTMODE 2 ON:
IF temperature falls under 20°C
ONLY IF MO-SUN 09:05 - 13:25
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN switch relay ON

NIGHTMODE 2 OFF:
IF temperature rises over 21°C
ONLY IF MO-SUN 09:05 - 13:25
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN switch relay OFF

AFTERNOON ON:
IF temperature falls under 22°C
ONLY IF MO-SUN 13:30 to 22:00
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN switch relay ON

AFTERNOON OFF:
IF temperature falls under 23°C
ONLY IF MO-SUN 13:30 to 22:00
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN switch relay OFF

NIGHTMODE 3 ON:
IF temperature falls under 20°C
ONLY IF MO-SUN 22:05 to 00:00
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN switch relay ON

NIGHTMODE 3 OFF:
IF temperature rises over 21°C
ONLY IF MO-SUN 22:05 to 00:00
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN switch relay OFF

About that timeframe settings: I can not set it in minutes - e.g. from 00:01 to 6:29 because I can set only 5 minutes intervals, so it is from 00:05 to 6:25. Does it have any impact on correct function?

I looked into the log bookwhere is:

00:34:09 - AFTERNOON ON triggered
00:34:09 - AFTERNOON ON action not executed
00:34:09 - MORNING ON triggered
00:34:09 - MORNING ON action not executed
03:32:35 - NIGHTMODE 1 OFF triggered
03:32:35 - NIGHTMODE 2 OFF triggered

It looks like the system is triggering actions in different time than it should do.
What do you think can be wrong?

Thank you for your help.

7

You have to distinguish between the trigger and the condition.
When the trigger comes true (e.g. temperature falls under 20°C) then (and only then) the conditions are checked. If all conditions are true, then (and only then) the action(s) will be done.
In your HGs your only trigger is the temperature rising over or falling under a target temperature.

03:32:35 temperature rises over 21°C so NIGTHMODE 1 OFF and NIGHTMODE 2 OFF both are triggerd, because their trigger was true. Only in NIGHTMODE1 OFF all conditions (timeframe+homemode) are true, so it should switch the relay off.

Looks like the at 00:34 the temperature fall under 22°C so both HGs were triggered, but in both the timeframe condition was not true so no action was taken.

Think about my approach to only activate the HGs you need during the actual timeframe and deactivate the others. You may use the same star/stop time in neighboring timeframes.

8

Hello ch.krause,

I begin to understand it. I wonder how often is the trigger checked?

HG’s for afternoon:

NIGHTMODE 2 ON:
IF temperature falls under 20°C
ONLY IF MO-SUN 09:00 - 13:30
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN switch relay ON

NIGHTMODE 2 OFF:
IF temperature rises over 21°C
ONLY IF MO-SUN 09:00 - 13:30
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN switch relay OFF

AFTERNOON ON:
IF temperature falls under 22°C
ONLY IF MO-SUN 13:30 to 22:00
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN switch relay ON

AFTERNOON OFF:
IF temperature falls under 23°C
ONLY IF MO-SUN 13:30 to 22:00
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN switch relay OFF

Example:
When the actual temperature in 13:28 is 21,8°C (relay is OFF because of nightmode) and the same temperature is in 13:31 so relay will not switch ON/OFF because the temperature did not change? Will be the trigger fired at next temperature change (21,7°C or lower) or (even at 21,9°C)?

Question:
Is the trigger fired only when actual temperature is changed (at every temperature change)?

I am just trying to understand how the system exactly thinks and works to ensure functional controls.

Thank you for your help and patience with me.

9

The trigger is checked as long as the HG is active. You can only trigger temperature changes:

temperature rises over XX
temperature falls under YY
temperature changes XX °C

No the trigger will not be fired because in the timeframe AFTERNOON ON/OFF because the target temperature is allready out of your desired hysteresis curve. The trigger is temperature is changing from higher than 22°C to lower than 22°C. If temperature is already below 22°C and is falling, the trigger will never be fired.
That is another special case to deal with in the activating/deactivating HGs I mentioned above.

10

I see.
At this moment I solve only HOME mode.

So can I edit HG’s (for example for AFTERNOON) like that? Please see below. Could it be like that?

AFTERNOON ON:
IF temperature falls under 22°C
ONLY IF MO-SUN 13:30 to 22:00
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN switch relay ON
THEN deactivate all the other HG’s (NIGHTMODE 1, 2, 3, MOORNING)
THEN activate AFTERNOON ON, OFF?

AFTERNOON OFF:
IF temperature falls under 23°C
ONLY IF MO-SUN 13:30 to 22:00
ONLY IF mode is HOME
THEN switch relay OFF
THEN deactivate all the other HG’s (NIGHTMODE 1, 2, 3, MOORNING)?
THEN activate actual HG’s (AFTERNOON ON, OFF)?

Is it also necessary to switch the relay OFF at this case?

Thank you for your help.

11

I would try another attempt. You should seperate the timeframe from the temperatur to get two independent triggers:

Use the this HGs to deal with the timeframes:

HG: AFTERNOON HOME
TRIGGER: IF MO-SUN 13:30 to 22:00
AND IF mode is HOME
THEN activate HG AFTERNOON HOME ON
AND activeate HG AFTERNOON HOME OFF
AND deactivate all the other HGs

HG: AFTERNOON HOME ON:
IF temperature falls under 22°C
OR IF temperature falls under 20°C (<- in case it is already below 22°C when activated)
ONLY IF MO-SUN 13:30 to 22:00
THEN switch relay ON

HG: AFTERNOON HOME OFF:
IF temperature rises over 23°C
ONLY IF MO-SUN 13:30 to 22:00
THEN switch relay OFF

So the activation of the hysteresis is separated from the timeframe and let you define to independed trigger points (timeframe and temperature).
This will not solve the problem with the overlapping temperatures when switching the from one timeframe to another (see example above).

12

[quote=„ch.krause, post:11, topic:16572“]
HG: AFTERNOON HOME
TRIGGER: IF MO-SUN 13:30 to 22:00
AND IF mode is HOME
THEN activate HG AFTERNOON HOME ON
AND activeate HG AFTERNOON HOME OFF
AND deactivate all the other HGs

HG: AFTERNOON HOME ON:
IF temperature falls under 22°C
OR IF temperature falls under 20°C (<- in case it is already below 22°C when activated)
ONLY IF MO-SUN 13:30 to 22:00
THEN switch relay ON

Hello,

I understand and I am going to make such as HGs. The only thing which is not possible is to set timeframe in IF (as a trigger). There is only time. Is there any other solution for this?

What about NIGHTFRAME - should I also put the condition:
OR IF temperature falls under …?

Thank you

13

You are right. We habe to change the trigger in the firt HGs to the modes in the second HGs to the temperature and use the timeframe as a condition. Maybe the works.

Or you wait until the next release of the firmware. There is a heating control anounced for the next release.

14

Hello,
I have to say it is quite complicated. It is necessary to create lots of programs to control it.
Do you know when will be the next beta version released?

15

As you can see here:

the release dates are:

grafik

The beta will be out about two week before the release. Must be around the end of November.

16

Thank’s for the info. I can not speak german very well so I have to translate it via translator.

17

No problem :grinning:

2 „Gefällt mir“
18

Hello ch.krause!
I am still trying to solve it up and thinking about that heating programs settings…

One timeframe:

HG AFTERNOON ON
TRIGGER: mode HOME
CONDITION: MO-SUN
CONDITION: Temperature is lower than 23°C
CONDITION: Temperature is higher than 22°C
THEN: Switch relay ON

HG AFTERNOON OFF
TRIGGER: mode HOME
CONDITION: MO-SUN
CONDITION: Temperature is higher than 23°C
THEN: Switch relay OFF

What do you think about that? Will be the relay switch ON anytime when the actual room temperature is between 22 and 23°C? I mean e.g. 22,1 or 22,2 or 22,3 or 22,4 etc…?
The condition is LOWER THEN or HIGHER THEN
The trigger is FALLING UNDER or RISING OVER

19

As I can see from your HGs your trigger is:

and nothing else. The other are conditions that are only checked if the trigger is fired.
Your trigger is true only in the moment when you change the mode from any other mode to HOME.

20

Hello,

OK, now I know that it is only at the precise moment and never again.
So how to manage that the system will watch the trigger for certain time period?

In previous message I ment that when the teperature is as a TRIGGER so we can choose TEMPERATURE FALLING UNDER or RISING OVER

And When the teperature is used as a CONDITION so we can choose if TEMPERATURE is LOWER THEN or HIGHER THEN. I asked if when is the temperature used as a condition, if it switch the relay ON if the temperature is between 22 and 23°C? I mean e.g. 22,1 or 22,2 or 22,3 or 22,4 etc…?

HG AFTERNOON ON
TRIGGER: ???
CONDITION: MO-SUN
CONDITION: Temperature is lower than 23°C
CONDITION: Temperature is higher than 22°C
THEN: Switch relay ON

HG AFTERNOON OFF
TRIGGER: ???
CONDITION: MO-SUN
CONDITION: Temperature is higher than 23°C
THEN: Switch relay OFF

Thank you